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| Let’s Play With a Demon . . . Or SHOULD We Try That? |
Click to read about witches and Halloween. OR about demons and Christmas. See comments below by Bill Leong, Allen Kisner, Leon Roberts, Buff Scott, Paul Moreland, and David Bayless.
An inquiry for comments about demon-possession
went out from Viewpoint on April 25th, 1998.Subject: A gripping questionDate sent: Fri, 24 Apr 1998Hi, ~ Bill Leong asks his Asian-American friends about demons.
I’m curious about YOUR experience with demon-possessed persons. Will you share? ...
From: Bill Leong
To: Chinese-American Christians
Subject: exorcismCACers, ~ A question occurred to me as I was watching Primetime’s Diane Sawyer's report about exorcism: Have any of you encountered a demon-possessed individual? If you have . . .what did you do or what was done . . .cast out demon, send to psychiatrist, avoid, what? This seems to be an almost taboo subject in the Chinese church, I think. Maybe the devil doesn’t mess with the Chinese. In over 25 years of ministry, I’ve personally encountered only two. They are times of real faith building! to say the least. -- bill leong
Date sent: Sun, 3 May 1998 ~ from Ray Downen
Hi, ~ I’m leaving tomorrow at noon or so to attend the Kiamichi Men’s Clinic at Christ’s 40 acres near Honobia, Oklahoma. Preparing to be away from the office for half a week has been hectic. This morning I received the note below in response to an inquiry above about demons and demon possession last week. Perhaps you’ll be interested.
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 ~ To: Ray Downen
From: David Bayless -- Subject: DemonsGot your correspondence about demons. They get into people who mess with the occult, and perhaps into people who clamor and beg to be possessed by a spirit (usually requesting the Holy Spirit). They seem to be able to take over a person (apparently always the same person per demon) at any time, which causes the possessed person to live in constant fear. One lady who was freed told me later that the passage of scripture which most impressed her was Romans 8:15:
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”The demon seems to love to torment the person he has possessed. One woman was lying, banging her head on the floor, and several men couldn’t control her. Amazing, isn’t it, that those who think they’re going to gain something by serving the devil are severely punished by him, even while they are serving him! I don’t think there’s any use practicing casting out demons, for they are able to return whenever they want. What is useful is teaching the demon-possessed person, while not possessed, of course, the gospel of Christ. Then he or she is freed, not only from the demon, but from sin and much more which may have made life for that person a “living hell.”I taught a woman so possessed about twenty years ago. Saturday night she decided to be baptized Sunday morning. During the meeting that morning the demon was constantly telling her, “Get out of here.” She had strength to resist possession, which makes me think that a person can resist at that point in conversion. The demon pursued her into the baptistry, always telling her, “Get out of here.”
When she came up, there was no more demon bothering her, for the Holy Spirit had come in, making possession by a demon impossible.
After that, for a couple of weeks, if I remember right, the demon, in dreams, requested permission to return. But she was in control, as is promised in Galatians 5:22,23. From that time on she was free from possession by the demon.
It doesn’t seem to make any sense to offer people temporary freedom from demons, when they can have permanent freedom, as well as the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sin, the great fellowship with God’s people, and all that goes with the Christian life.
The woman whose head the demon was banging on the floor was offered teaching so she could be free, but the Spiritist leader she was subject to taught her a song she could sing when the demon took control of her, so she wouldn’t be tormented. So she eventually ended up, or will end up, in hell.
Yours in Christ, ~ David
Date sent: Sat, 9 May 1998 ~ from Viewpoint
Hi, ~ Here's a note you might find interesting. I very much enjoyed the week at the Kiamichi Clinic. There were 800 or so men present. We heard from several good speakers including an attorney, a scientist, several school administrators, an indian chief and a county sheriff.
There have been 87 baptisms in the sheriff's jail in recent months. He's being sued by the loving ACLU folks because he posted the ten commandments in that jail.
Many good singers shared their talent, including two male quartets, one with a tenor who sounded exactly like a contralto and looked like a female-type person with short hair.
The other quartet (Toney brothers) included a very mature bass with a very low voice who sometimes ate his microphone (or appeared to) and a young man with a clear tenor voice who could sing extremely high notes with no apparent trouble. Their very best song was sung a cappella.
The Clinic next year will be the 50th. I enjoyed the first, and hope to be there for the 50th. I'd like to meet you there (Honobia, OK the first week in May).
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: Leon Roberts ~ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998Date sent: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 ~ Subject: demonsBrother Ray, ~ I too heard a similar story about demons by a former New Age couple turned Christian. The husband and wife were "channeling" and talking to their "spirit guides" when a minister knocked at their door. The minister's knock caused the spirit guides to flee. The couple conversed with the minister and assured him that they were "believers" and that the spirits were from God. The minister asked them if they had tested the spirits. He then suggested to them that the next time the spirit approached or spoke with them they should ask if the spirit knew Jesus Christ. He urged, "If the spirit answers yes, then ask him to say, 'Jesus is Lord.'"
The minister left his card and a free copy of the scriptures for the couple and went on his way. The couple resumed their channeling and the spirit guides returned. The woman asked her spirit guide if he knew Jesus Christ. The spirit guide replied "yes, I know who Jesus is." She then asked her spirit guide to say: Jesus is Lord. The spirit guide became angry and began to attack her violently shouting: "I know Jesus, you don't know Jesus!" While this episode occurred, her husband tried desperately to come to her aid but was held down to the floor by his spirit guide while his wife's face was pounded into the floor.
When the episode ended, her nose was bloody and broken and the spirit guides fled the house. The couple immediately phoned the minister who had left his card and he returned to their home, shared the message of salvation with them and baptized them both. They spent the rest of that week devouring the scriptures and are now in an active ministry trying to get people out of the New Age movement. This couple and their minister appeared on a christian radio talk program in Dallas, TX to recount the horrible incident. They believe that the spirits were demons direct from Satan himself.
They now claim only one spirit, the Holy Spirit. I believe that when one makes a voluntary league with Satan, the results can be as bad as death itself.
Hope the clinic went well. ~ Leon Roberts
Another response
From: Allen KisnerDear Ray, ~ In reference to Bill Leong's letter, I have had also only two encounters with what I assume to have been demon possession. I am not God and cannot for a fact say that the person was demon-possessed. They certainly had something out of the ordinary wrong with them and when the elders of the congregation put their hands on this lady and prayed and got her finally to read a passage of the Bible that says that Jesus is Lord she came back to her senses. She was then taught about filling her life with the Lord and receiving His Spirit. She never came to church (we were called to her house by a friend) and moved to some other place and I cannot say if she ever repented and accepted Jesus as Lord. If she did not, probably something worse happened to her.
The second case was down in central Brazil when I went to visit a fellow missionary. As you may or may not know this brother is what some would call "charismatic" or some say "pentecostal." I am not aware of the terms that they use anymore in the states. Anyway, our brother was having at the time, what boiled down to a healing and exorcism meeting at a movie theatre he had rented.
The person I am referring to was a lady at the meeting. She became very agitated and they say that is the sign of demon possession (like I say I am not God or one of the apostles to be able to say for sure).
The lady's appearance changed completely and she became super strong. Four big men had a very difficult time trying to hold her down. Jerry talked and prayed and asked me to put my hands on her and I did, and then we all prayed and finally she got better.
After the meeting I had a sort of interview with her and found out that this was about the fourth or fifth time she had been exorcised. I also found out that she had never given her life over to God. My brother missionary couldn't understand why they had to keep doing this to the woman. ...
I don't want to ramble on. The main thing I have found out if that is what you are seeking that is what you will find. I personally prefer to tell the good news about what Jesus has done for me and what He wants to do for the whole world. When I am doing this I find I don't have time for other things.
I have never ever tried to make casting out demons part of my ministry. If in the course of things something comes up I will address it. I think my work is to preach the word. The power is in what is preached and not in the preacher. Unfortunately I have seen too many who have gone off after this thing of casting out demons and it is amazing how many they find (if for a fact they do find them). I certainly think that this could even be a trick that Satan uses to keep good men from doing what they should be doing and that is preaching the good news about Jesus. I have seen good men who have gotten into this thing and they just seem to go completely off track to the point that they see someone walking down the street and say that that person has a demon.
I certainly don't have the answers but I can see dangers for the ones who make a ministry out of casting out demons.
Yours in Christ, ~ Allen Kisner
More from Bill Leong explaining his thought
Date sent: Wed, 06 May 1998 ~ Subject: ExorcismI'm a bit surprised that no one has witnessed a demon-possessed person . . .at least no one else in this CAC -- except possibly for Him, which at the moment seems questionable. At the risk of sounding "loony," I'll share my experience, because who knows but that you may have an encounter of the hellish kind.After a Sunday message, I gave an altar call for anyone who might want to respond to my message and receive Christ. A Japanese fellow came forward. As I prayed for him, he fell to the floor and a couple of my members continued to pray for him as I moved on to pray for someone else.
Then one of the members came over and said, "Bill, I think he's possessed." I went over and the fellow was twisting about and his face was contorted, and he was making a low gutteral sound. Then we commanded the devil to come out in Jesus' name and prayed with urgency to God for help. The more we prayed and rebuked the demon, the louder and louder he got . . .yelling: No! No! Zork rules! Zork rules! At least that was what it sounded like. And we yelled back: No! Jesus rules! This went on for over an hour or more. He finally just went quiet and was sleeping.
To make a long story short, he got discipled and, baptized, became a faithful member for many years.
I can say that I was scared and not scared at the same time! Looking back, I think what happened was the fellow invited Jesus to come in but someone else was in residence. Jesus had to kick out the demon first. Mt.12:28,29
If we are active in a spiritual war (Eph.6:12) we will no doubt encounter stuff like this, and I hope if you do run into a demon you'll remember my experience and find it helpful. ~ bill leong
Date sent: Fri, 08 May 1998
From: "Paul W. Moreland"
Subject: Re: About demons and thingsHi Ray, ~ Hope you had a good week. I've not been able to get in on one of those get-togethers in years. Usually a great time of fellowship.And here's testimony from Paul's newsletter of April 11th, 1998 -- Do you believe that the Bible is the only way to truly know God's will and how He wants His church to work? I do. I believe that when it comes to either believing and following the Bible or simply imitating what our Evangelical neighbors are doing, it is best to follow the Bible no matter what "reults" they claim to have acheived by doing things their way. My belief was further bolstered this week by a regrettable incident in Cali.I find David's comments very interesting and in line with my own observations. Since folks don't go to the scriptures for information they open themselves to serious danger by praying for the Spirit to overwhelm them. There are many spirits but the Holy Spirit of Jehovah God, the creator of this universe, is only given through obedience to His Word.
The Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit is given to those who have repented and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins. The process was clearly demonstrated by Jesus Himself. When He was baptized the Holy Spirit came upon Him in the visible form of a dove.
Jesus taught that when a demon is cast out it passes through arid places and when it returns it finds its dwelling clean and swept out and it invites seven others to come and dwell with it. Casting out demons without conversion and reception of the Holy Spirit opens the person to worse posession than before.
We don't find the Apostles searching out demons to rebuke and cast out like so many evangelicals do today. We find Paul in Phillipi being followed and harrassed by a demon-possessed girl for several days before he cast it out. Our emphasis should be in preaching the Gospel and not in seeking to cast out every demon we can. ~ Paul Moreland, Colombia
Andres Guzman has been on our prayer list for several months now, ever since he lost a leg in an accident near Ibague. His mother has been listening to some evengelical friends and was invited to a "Vigilia" -- (prayer vigil). Neither her husband nor Andres wanted to go with her so she stayed home, closed herself in a room and began to invite the "Holy Spirit" to come into her.
Now when you carefully study the book of Acts you will find that Peter told the Jews on the day of Pentecost that those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus receive forgiveness of sins and are given the "gift of the Holy Spirit". A lot of folks don't understand that what is promised is the Holy Spirit as a gift.
It is important to note that forgiveness of sins comes first. God will not dwell in the presence of sin and so it is important that we be forgiven so that He can indwell us. Yolanda didn't seek what the Scriptures teach on the subject, she just began to ask the "Spirit" to come in. She began to speak in tongues and the news quickly spread that she had "religion."
One of her sisters who also lives in Cali found out but was surprised to find that although a spirit had come into her life, it was not the Holy Spirit of God. I know that among some of you it is hard to realize that demon possession is very real, but Satan has many ways of working. If he has you by your pocketbook he has you just as effectively and maybe even more effectively as if he was dwelling in your body. If he has you by your tongue, in telling lies and deception, it is harder to deal with than if he is controlling your body.
Anyway, Yolanda refuses to allow anyone to pray with her or for her. She insists that she has the Holy Spirit and so why should anyone pray for her, of course a demon is terrified of prayer by an immersed believer in Jesus, the Holy Spirit welcomes opportunities to pray. The whole situation is very regrettable. All we can do at this time is seek our Father's throne and uplift her and her family in prayer and ask that this presence be removed from her life and that she can have the opportunity to hear and obey the true gospel.
In case you are still unsure, the Holy Spirit comes not by prayer or suplication, but by obedience to God's clear commands in Scripture. Without forgiveness of sins He cannot enter our lives.
Date sent: Sat, 9 May 1998
From: Buff Scott <TheReformer1@compuserve.com>Subject: News & More about demons
Say, Ray: ~ Thanks for forwarding Leon's piece about demons to me. It was interesting.I'm very cautious about accepting as factual these hear-say stories, not that I think Leon is deliberately misleading. To the contrary, he believes demons have overwhelming control over the lives of some people today, as they did in Jesus' day. I don't.
Much of Satan's power was taken away when Jesus resurrected, as the scriptures so boldly teach. (No need to deal with those scriptures at this point.)
These demonic stories are very much like the supernatural stories of healing that come across my screen occasionally -- a lot of hear-say, but no ACTUAL witnesses. Give me the names and addresses of those witnesses so that I can question them at length. Not too many weeks ago, a brother claimed to have witnessed a blind man being healed. When I questioned him at length, his story did not hold water, and he backed off and bowed out. And so it seems with those stories about Satan operating supernaturally in the lives of people. They just simply don't hold up under questioning. I'm a "doubting Buff," and I insist on proof! Until then, I'll maintain my cautious stance.
I'm sending a copy of this to my brother Leon. -- Buff.