6/30
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| More on Law & Grace |
Date sent: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 -- From: "G. Parker Rossman"Here are notes about salvation through law-keeping from Parker Rossman, Karla Celaya, Leon Roberts, Steve Campbell, Tom Woody, and Gary Hall.
Subject: Re: Viewpoint News & Views 2/28/98 on Grace vs LawWe have spent too much time arguing across Christian history, so I do not want to argue about the OT-NT grace question. But a devoted Christian layman recently has carefully read and prayed over the entire Old Testament. He was appalled to see God authorizing slavery, massacre of children, concubines, many wives, the right of a father to kill his child, etc. A bible study class working this over with him agreed that the Old Testament loses all of its authority with questing people unless Christians make it clear that for us the Old Testament has to be read through the eyes of Jesus and interpreted in light of his teachings.
Parker Rossman
3 Lemmon Drive author, EMERGING WORLDWIDE ELECTRONIC
Columbia MO 65201 UNIVERSITY (Praeger, 1993)home page: http://www.trib.net/~prossman
==========Subject: Viewpoint News & Views 2/28/98
Date sent: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:57I sent this out by e-mail /// Hi, -- Today I've returned from a full day at Springfield MO attending the second day of the 1998 Missouri Christian Convention. The first is a comment about grace and law from Karla Celaya who lives near Joplin -- >
> To: Ray Downen -- > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998I replied to Mrs. Louie Celaya -- Karla, -- Thanks for your comment. I enthusiastically agree with Randy, and equally disagree with Gary Hall if he is saying we must keep O.T. commands or make O.T. religious practices our practices. I agree with you also. That is, any sinner who is saved will be saved by grace.
> Subject: Re: Saved by Law-Keeping?
> From: LOUIE P CELAYA (Karla)> Dear Ray, Since you put "The Old Testament Empire Strikes Back" on the internet, I hope you will also publish Gary Hall's excellent reply from the Feb. 22 Christian Standard Mail Box. I was rather disheartened concerning Randall Smelser's article and greatly encouraged to read Gary Hall's reply. We are doing a great injustice to God and His Word to say that the OT was Law and the NT Grace. They were saved by grace in the OT, too.
> I could go on and on, but do trust you read Mr. Hall's letter. Like I said, it is excellent, but just touches the surface. Hope those who read it will start to dig deeper.
Karla
Yet the only way those who lived under a code of law could be justified was by perfectly obeying the law code. They were never invited to "save themselves" in any way other than by full and exact obedience to everything prescribed in the code.
You say they were to be saved by grace. But nothing God said during the time men lived under the law of Moses offered them salvation based on anything other than obedience. And in Romans chapter 2, Paul writes,"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law." He says those not under the law will NOT be judged according to the law, as I understand him. But those of whom he spoke will PERISH, he says, although they are not judged according to the law. Does "perish" here mean just that they will die? Very possibly so.
But we read on, "and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous." I see no evidence here that Paul thought those under the law would be saved by grace without perfectly keeping the Mosaic Law.
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Is not Paul still insisting that judgment will be based on the actions of men regardless of whether or not the men knew what was said by the law?
Whenever a legalistic approach to salvation is believed and taught in our churches, the result is a legalistic outlook which is exactly as described by Randy.
I'm convinced that Christians should seek light from New Testament scriptures rather than attempting to shape our religion (in belief and practice) by texts from both the Old and New Testaments. The Christian Way is not a mixture of grace and law.
The "law of Christ" is simply love for God and for other children of His. It does not include observance of special days, formalized fasts, rules prohibiting activities such as attending movies or watching TV, or paying money into a "church treasury." In my opinion, nothing in the Old Testament is included in the Way of Christ.
It was good to see Louie at Springfield today.
From: Leon Roberts
Date sent: Sun, 1 Mar 1998
To: Ray Downen -- Subject: Re: Viewpoint News & Views 2/28/98Ray, -- In addition to grace, might we also say that God added tolerance? I mean that he tolerated polygamy in the OT, he tolerated divorce among the Jews, etc. I do not mean tolerance in terms of what many gays and lesbians are calling for today. God had to tolerate us and those before us. I believe he did that under grace. In the OT God extended grace by putting the Law (which could save no one even if they kept it to the fullest extent) into effect until Christ came.
Paul wrote to the Galatian churches and said that if any law had been put into effect that could bring about salvation (or some translations read forgiveness of sins), then Christ died for nothing. I believe firmly that we now live under a dispensation of grace to the uttermost (borrowing a little phrase from Hebrews), and that Christ fulfilled God's promise, not only to Israel, but to everyone. I see God's grace expressing itself through tolerance in the OT, and through Christ in the NT.
Any feedback is appreciated. I am often criticized for my open views like these, but am determined to introduce those I can influence to Christ, Grace, and the joy of being a Christian whatever the cost!
Your brother in Christ,
Leon Roberts, Southgate Church of Christ, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Date sent: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 -- To: Ray DownenTHEN I RECEIVED from Tom Woody another comment --
From: Steve B Campbell
Subject: Viewpoint News & Views 2/28/98Ray -- One of the struggles that many have, especially those of us in the Restoration movement, is to come to a point where we "accept" the gift, not "earn" it! Most of us grew up on a theology which led us to believe that only those who "perform" up to par; who "keep the rules"; and are members of the "true" church (in good standing, I might add), are able to expect to "possibly" make it to heaven (by the skin of our teeth!).
Perhaps that's an exaggeration. Suffice it to say that we don't easily accept grace and its incomparable gift without encountering "bootstraps" theology (you need to do it yourself). Sad (and glad, from a different perspective) thing in thinking WE need to do it is, it's already been done... Steve Campbell
> To: Ray Downen > Subject: Re: Viewpoint News & Views 2/28/98
> From: Thomas W Woody
> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998> Ray, -- Before I know whether to disagree with Gary Hall or not I would like to read his thoughts. Can you possibly forward a copy of that to me? I want to communicate with the Celaya's again because I think I see where they are coming from.
> Wise unto salvation through the Holy Scriptures,
> Tom
> Submitted humbly for your consideration by> Thomas W. Woody,
> by the grace of God.Tom, My piling system makes it difficult or impossible to locate most articles I don't put on my web site. I don't throw away Christian Standards, but neither do I file them in one place or by date -- instead they get piled with many other excellent things too good to be thrown away. I'm very efficient, sort of. I think you should subscribe to the Christian Standard so that YOU also can maintain a file!Anyway, I WAS able to find Gary's letter. It only took about 20 minutes. Gary Hall in a letter to the Christian Standard, wrote,Gary Hall appeals for us to become Old Testament Christians because brethren had the O.T. prior to the giving of the N.T. Yet the N.T. reveals that Jesus (who was known only in PROMISE during O.T. times) is the base for Christianity, and legalism (the O.T. plan for salvation was based on obedience to law and on the sacrificing of animals to atone for sin) IS the base for practice of the Jewish religion. I enthusiastically disagree with Gary Hall's estimate of our need for receiving instruction in DOCTRINE from the O.T. -- Ray Downen -- Further comments are just a "click" away."It was discouraging and frustrating to read Randall Smelser's article, "The Old Testament Empire Strikes Back" (October 19). The tone of the title itself invited the reader to insert the word "EVIL empire." The choice to play on the Star Wars movie was unfortunate. [Ray notes -- I disagree since I think what Randy was writing about was legalism -- seeking salvation through law-keeping. It's legalism (thinking that we are still UNDER the law of Moses) that's attacking the Lord's church still.]
"I agree that many of the items cited represent a danger to the church because they are not at the heart of its faith and practice. [Ray notes -- Legalism is more than "not at the heart of the faith and practice of Christ's church." Legalism is exactly opposed to the faith and practice of Christ's church!] But it should be made clear that an external legalistic observation of these practices was opposed in the Old Testament as well. Space allows only limited comments.
"1) Circumcision in the Old Testament came only after the promise to Abraham. It was a sign of a prior gift of grace. The covenant preceded the law. Israel pledged to obey the law because it was a gift (Exodus 19:3-8; 24:3, 7, 8). Therefore, circumcision was the response of the believing community. In itself it had no independent validity.
"However, the O.T. recognized that legalism on this matter could set in. Deuteronomy 10:16 called for the circumcised HEART, which was the crucial issue (see also Jeremiah 4:4; 9:5, and Deut. 30:6). Membership in the covenant community was not automatic. Disobedience brought expulsion, eventually, for the entire nation. To know God through a transformed heart was an O.T. concern also (Hosea 4).
"2) Though the temple seems to take pride of place in the O.T. worship scheme, again a careful reading needs to be done.
"The first two of the Ten Commandments deal with worship but don't mention a place. [Ray notes -- Of course they didn't, since they predate the building of a worship tabernacle and the later building of a permanent worship structure.] Time was more important in O.T. worship than place. God's promise to be present in the tabernacle and later the temple was a gracious act to meet Israel where they were.
[Ray notes -- God chose to make Himself present in the one particular place for Jewish worship. When other worship centers were built, no such "gracious act to meet Israel where they were" resulted.]
"... The place of worship was not the most important part of Israel's relationship with God. Rather, worship had to be accompanied by right action -- specificially, justice and righteousness, or the 'right' place was of no account (Isaiah 1:10-17; Jeremiah 7:1-15; Micah 6:6-8; Psalm 51:16,17). God desired obedience and mercy rather than sacrifice (1 Samuel 15:22; Hosea 6:6). [Ray notes -- If God had not desired sacrifice, He had no need to establish a system which called for sacrifices. Did Gary mean to say MORE THAN sacrifice instead of RATHER THAN?]
"3) The O.T. was very aware that outward observance of rules was invalid apart from the committed heart. The Psalms demonstrate how central to Israelite worship was the devoted HEART. We must not make the mistake of divorcing the Psalms from Leviticus.
"The law in the O.T. was not considered a legalstic system of winning God's approval, but the gracious gift of the revelation of His will. [Ray asks -- I wonder who told Gary THIS that he states as a fact.] It was His instruction to His covenant community. To understand how the true Israelite understood the law, Psalm 119 must be read.
"AS Christians, we must be very careful we don't just read the O.T. through Paul's lens in Romans and Galatians where he is not attacking the Pentateuch, but a legalistic reading of law by Judaizing Christians. He states that the commandments are holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12).
"The problem of both Old and New Testament is not God's revealed will -- it is sinful human nature. What men need (as seen in all our study of God's dealing with men) is a transformed heart.
"The first person to be expelled from the church as a heretic was Marcion. The charge was that he wanted to rid the church of the O.T. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of incipient Marcionism in the church today.
"Emil Brunner years ago said that the church stands or falls with the O.T! [Ray notes -- Emil Brunner just COULD have been wrong, of course.] We talk about New Testament Christianity, but that phrase is foreign to the N.T. and to 1st-century Christians. If anything, they were O.T. Christians, for that's all the Bible they had at first. The N.T. we have is the outcome of actions taken by the second- and third-century church. [Ray notes -- And I thought Paul wrote even before he was put to death about 60 A.D.! It is possible that some early Christians heard or read John's Revelation even before the end of the first century A.D. The facts Gary speaks of are true, but the implication he makes seems misleading.]
"What should we do with the O.T.? It's NOT an evil empire striking back at us. It's the revelation of God which N.T. writers assumes is authoritative Scripture for the church. [Ray notes -- As Randy well points out, the fact of doctrine based on legalism is evil and unChristian. Most contemporary legalism either is based on the O.T. or makes considerable USE of that law code to justify their new laws.]
"The issue is hermeneutics. I have suggested some beginning guidelines in my essay in Essentials of Christian Faith published by College Press, pages 251-271. I would issue the challenge that we first attempt to be biblical Christians." -- Gary H. Hall, Lincoln IL.