Part 3 of Viewpoint Brief Bible Study #072. |
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JESUS calls US to be |
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The Christian religion is the worship and service of Jesus Christ. It’s not Mary we worship, but her Son. We worship neither saints, angels, a law code, nor even God’s Spirit. It’s JESUS who is to be honored. The Bible is our guide. |
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More Thoughts on Promise KeepersComments by Joe Wong and
Tom Woody and Gary Washburn and Dave Moyer and Charles Phipps about women and questions of authority in God's church.The National Organization for Women doesn't like PK because NOW members say PK encourages male domination. From: JWongCDI@aol.com
Date sent: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:28:49 -0400 (EDT) To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Women & MinistryGreetings on a beautiful Monday morning in Chicago. Fall is crisply in the air, hinting of a winter (which I hear can be pretty challenging for a Californian). But, for now, I love it.
I apologize for being slow in entering the discussion on women and ministry. It is often a frustrating topic because we are concerned about authority and power, about "ruling over" and submitting. In trying to discern God's design and purpose in this matter (as we are all seeking to do) I've decided on an approach that seems to work for me. My primary question is over Responsibility. Who is responsible? or What are the responsibilities given to this person?
The point of discovering responsibility is that we are then able to (assign) recognize who has authority or power. I believe God has not handed out authority willy-nilly, but purposefully, according to His design in creation. Many of our problems in relationships come about when an individual assumes/usurps a responsibility that does not belong to him/her. In trying to carry out the responsibility, he/she discovers that there is no accompanying authority, and wonders why nobody is willing to listen to him/her. (eg: an older child acting like a parent over younger siblings). There is also the practice of assigning a responsibility to an individual, without providing authority. This also is a way to create chaos.
I find that Scripture passages like Hebrews 13:17, are easily understood when we approach it from a Responsibility perspective. "Obey your leaders, and submit {to them}; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." Hopefully, this approach will help in our thinking. Joe Wong, Church Dynamics International
Does the Bible instruct us to appoint wives and/or women to be leaders in our churches? Does the Word lead us to believe that women HAVE responsibility in church leadership? Many want to believe it does. But in fact it suggests that older women are to be instructors of younger women, and that younger women are to be instructors of youth rather than of men. Yes?
Comments by Tom Woody about Promise Keepers --
To: outreach@sofnet.com Subject: Re: PK Response
From: tomwoody@juno.com (Thomas W Woody)
Date sent: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:08:12 EST Dear Ray,Thank you for stirring our gray matter with your articles and comments. Your reply to the question about Promise Keepers a few months ago was intriguing and I thought you might like to hear my two-cents worth from a different view.
I appreciate your attempt to take a charitable view of Promise Keepers and I do agree with you that they are teaching men to do right by their families; which we are also taught by Christ & the apostles. While I have not attended any of their meetings, I have listened to their meetings broadcast over the radio. I believe the organization has gained its power and influence because we have such a vacuum of morally strong male leadership in this effeminate society, as well as in many churches. This, I believe, is an awful symptom of a country (and a church) that has forsaken God. (Isaiah 3:1-12).
Though they have done some good in the lives of the men who have joined, and we cannot disagree with most or all of the morals they endorse, I am still not ready to endorse their group. As far as the good morals that they are teaching, there is a lot of good teaching from the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., on being a good husband and father, which you and I would not disagree with. Would you recommend attendance at their meetings, and just ignore their teachings on how to become a Christian since neither you nor I agree with their plan? I do not understand how you can be so easygoing about the "sinner's prayer" advocates in PK when you so eloquently oppose their unscriptural doctrine. Would you be as easygoing about the Mormons and the JW's? I also like a lot of the morals of Catholic doctrine, but I am not ready to attend mass to get that teaching.
And I believe this brings us to the point. The Scriptures contain all the teaching we need on morality; thoroughly furnishing us to every good work, according to II Tim. 3:17. The church has lasted for almost two millenia now without PK - but to hear some speak of the group, you wonder how God ever managed without them? The same function that PK is assuming has always been given to faithful brethren in the local church. The reason I am encouraged to keep my promises and be a good husband and father is because I have faithful brethren and elders who set good examples that greatly influence my own conduct, not because I gather in a stadium filled with excited men! I just watched an elderly brother in the church lose his wife to cancer over the course of several months, and his example of patience and kindness is priceless to me because it constrains me to treat my wife in the same way. "If he can do it, so can I."
We know what God expects because we have the Bible. What does PK have that Christ hasn't already furnished in the church? A stadium? Celebrity speakers? All-male pep rallies? An obituary in the local paper last year described a man in his 40's who had died and while there was no church membership mentioned, he WAS a member of PK. I believe there are many like him who want to view PK in the same way we should view the Lord's church - as a soul-saving institution! (Please don't argue semantics here, Christ saves us through His Body on earth, and that Body is His Church- Acts2:47.) The Devil's favorite tactic is imitation and I fear that PK is just another imitation that will catch up a lot of people and then shipwreck their faith when the excitement wears off.
Do we not have enough denominations already? If a person argues that PK is a unity movement, we have a serious problem there also since, as stated before, we don't even agree with them on how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven! The church is not a fad. PK is, and once the enthusiasm begins to wane, it will either die or institutionalize itself to maintain its presence on the religious scene. The church is the Bride of Christ, but I am not sure what to call PK - an adulterous affair?* May the Lord help us men to be the faithful Bride of Christ. -- Tom Woody
(*adultery is, in the words of the man who has committed the act, "an attempt to get from a stranger what you already have at home.")
Promise Keepers
From: DaveCMoyer <dmoyer@toolcity.net>
Date sent: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:06:00 EST To: outreach@sofnet.comI continue to be amazed at the length to which one can make criticisms about things which one obviously does not understand. With a measure of trepidation, because I did not see to what he was responding, my reply to Tom Woody's comments regarding PK would be that PK does not intend to be a substitute for the local church. Spending any significant time with this organization will teach one that they support the local church (and all clergy), repeatedly state that any contributions one gives PK should not come from one's obligations to the local church, encourage non-attenders or irregular attenders of churches to get back to attending the local church and to become an active, rather than passive, members. They spend much of their time instructing men to take their proper places of leadership in the church, the family, and the community.
PK is largely an evangelistic organization with altar calls that rival Billy Graham's as a percentage to the people present at any given event. They also try to inspire weak Christians to recommit their lives to the work of the Lord. They do serve as a source of teaching materials and techniques for use in churches.
Those of us who belong to strong local churches (RAY note-Dave is not familiar with the thinking of many of us in Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, but he is a strong Christian) may not need what they provide, but many men are associated with pitiful congregations who don't know how to minister to common men. Many men are not associated with any church.
Some of those are professing Christians who have forgotten their responsibilities, perhaps due to the vapid nature of much of the church as well as the constant bombardment with worldly ideas about doing what feels good rather than what is good for one. Some of those are "unsaved" and may be unlikely to visit a church without some prodding by one of God's instruments.
PK won't convert and inspire everyone, but if some men are inspired and/or "saved" through their ministry, then I, as a Calvinist, must assume that God has chosen to use this organization as a tool to reach men. There are many missions organizations whose programs or techniques don't appeal to me personally, but that doesn't mean that they are not used by God to reach members of the elect.
I also have my share of problems with PK. I certainly don't look to PK for doctrinal instruction. As someone who has strongly held convictions about many doctrinal issues, I often cringe at some of the statements made by some speakers. It will ever be so with ecumenical organizations. If one cannot stand to hear statements with which one disagrees, then one should not attend or listen to such events (which is the same thing I hear Tom saying above -- Ray).
More recently, PK has shown some signs of leaving their original purpose and going on to something with which IÆm not entirely comfortable. In their desire to reach more and more men, they have compromised on a doctrinal issue (in order to appease the RCs) that I am not prepared to overlook although 95 percent of the men associated with the group would not understand where the problem lies. Only a few people are even aware of the doctrinal compromise they have made. (Ray notes--I differ with Dave's understanding on this matter. In changing wording which claimed that sinners were saved by faith alone, PK has just come to agree with what I understand the Bible to clearly teach. Dave thinks they have abandoned what he thinks the Bible clearly teaches). They seem, also, to have developed a post-millennial view that has them serving a major role in ushering in the kingdom. Of course, what is offensive to me is a beautiful truth to other real Christians. For some reason (promotion of humility?) the Lord has promoted or allowed great diversity of opinion among the apparent elect.
As Tom has acknowledged, PK has done a lot to turn men toward moral behaviors. Cults can accomplish the same thing. Fraternal secular organizations like Kiwanis, Rotary, Jaycees, etc. may also accomplish some of these things. Supporting those groups which accomplish some good for society seems good to me, as long as they don't support totally abhorrent doctrines or ideas.
Those who turn in response to excitement, rallies, etc. may eventually turn away. It seems, however, that many of the elect are also being reached, in which case opposition would be fruitless and even sinful. (There is no scriptural support of which I am aware for the idea that all evangelism or even all exhorting and prophesying must come from the local congregation. There are numerous incidents described which seem to support that God uses many kinds of people and situations in evangelism.)
Not everyone must promote or recommend PK or Billy Graham. However, we should be very careful about openly criticizing those who appear to be Christian brothers doing what appears to be the work of God. Although I am not a fan of ecumenism, I think the Lord will chastise many of us for refusing to associate with brothers and sisters over some very unimportant doctrinal issues.
Remember that the chief spiritual gift is love. I believe that a better response to PK would be to acknowledge the good that they do. If one is too uncomfortable with some of their characteristics to participate or to actively promote them, so be it. That opinion should probably be guarded and examined in private.
I know that my brain has been not working well all day due to fatigue. I apologize in advance if I have missed the mark or have been too harsh. -- David C Moyer
From: GWashb6065 <GWashb6065@aol.com>
Date sent: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:38:26 EST To: outreach@sofnet.comIn a message dated 97-12-18 18:06:01 EST, I read:
<< I believe the organization has gained its power and influence because we have such a vacuum of morally strong male leadership in this effeminate society, as well as many churches. >>
Ray - Thanks for sharing this letter from a brother who has a negative attitude about Promise Keepers. In RE to the quote above, I would add that PK has become so large and influential in part due to the failure of the local church to provide the inspirational, motivational leadership that it should.
Having been in ministry for 30 years, and now in the business world, I now see things from a different perspective. The average local church - any group/denomination - is generally seen by the community as an anachronism. Not because it is, but because it is not proactively living out its mission. The average church is more concerned with how we've done it in the past than they are with how we're going to do it in the future. Leadership is often more focused on retaining control and power than in empowering members for ministry. And far too many churches are oblivious to the fact that the community just chuckles at them. Many churches are their own little fiefdom, complete with pecking order, that has absolutely nothing to do with carrying out the mission of the gospel.
It is out of this vacuum that PK can thrive. It is because of this vacuum that, when someone dies, he is listed as a PK rather than a church member. Yes, PK will run its course, simply because it isn't the church - it's a man-made convention. But it's a shame that a PK has to come into existence. Maybe God is using PK to call the church back to its mission.
-- Gary Washburn, Oxford, MI (Jack Spratt's son-in-law) [Jack and I were in school together at Ozark Christian College many years ago--Ray].
Or go back to Viewpoint Study 72. Brief Bible Study #72-B from Ray Downen
For Ray's concluding remarks, click HERE.