JESUS calls US to be
members of His church

The Christian religion is the worship and service of Jesus Christ. It’s not Mary we worship, but her Son. We worship neither saints, angels, a law code, nor even God’s Spirit. It’s JESUS who is to be honored. The Bible is our guide.

> To: outreach@sofnet.com ~ Cc: WHLittle@aol.com
> Subject: Re: We Want to See Jesus
> From: tomwoody@juno.com (Thomas W Woody)

> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:09:00 EST

> On March 23rd, Ray writes:
>
>>I want to not seem legalistic. But I do feel strongly that
>>directions many churches have taken in recent years have
>>diluted the practical respect in which some hold Jesus Himself.
>>JESUS is Lord. JESUS saves. JESUS represents us before the
>>Father God. Is this not true?

>>Later, Ray and/or Leroy Garret write:
>>But where in the Bible is command or example
>>showing that any Christian should pray to, praise, or
>>worship the Holy Spirit of God?
>
> Ray, From your comments above it looks like Wally and I
> may not be the only legalists [Note that Tom does NOT
> feel that he and Wally ARE legalists]. What would you say
> to someone who says that even though there is no
> command or example for praying to the Holy Spirit in the
> NT they will go ahead and do it anyway? After all, they
> might say, there is no LAW against doing it, so we are
> therefore FREE to pray however we choose. And while we
> are on the subject of praying, do you know of a LAW in
> the NT against praying to deceased saints?

> I agree with your view on praying to the Holy Spirit. But aren't
> you using the same logic that Wally and I use for subjects
> like the collection for the saints and instrumental music?

> Your curious friend, -- Tom

> Submitted humbly for your consideration by
> Thomas W. Woody, -- by the grace of God.
>

To: tomwoody@juno.com (Thomas W Woody)
Subject: Re: We Want to See Jesus
Copy to: Wallace H Little

Date sent: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:11:25

Brother Tom, and Brother Wally by copy,

I not only want to not SEEM legalistic, I want to not BE legalistic. I'm sure we three share that goal. [I hope every reader also does.]

Yet, if we're to consider the Bible USEFUL in knowing God's will for us, we need to USE it. I do so. But I seek carefully to avoid reading INTO it what I want to find. Instead, I try to find what GOD is saying through His Word that applies to me in any question I face.

We're discussing 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 (does it teach that a church is to have a treasury which is controlled by selected church leaders who are accountable only to God?). Tom has a good point in calling attention to the fact that Paul makes mention of the first day of the (each) week, a time when the saints then gathered and now gather. Wally points out that it's to avoid "collections" when he gets there that Paul is suggesting this course of preparation.

We each recognize that assets must be safeguarded and protected by whoever holds them. Paul knew that also. Paul carefully outlined the men to guard the flock in matters of faith, and to help with material matters. Yet neither elders nor deacons are brought into his discussion of this special gift for those needing help in Judea.

Nor does Paul outline requirements for a "treasurer" by whatever name. I see you finding a treasury in the passage only because you want there to be one there. And a treasurer. And a committee. And next we'll have funds for a clergy and buildings, etc. And then we'll have to debate whether congregations can merge their support for the needy, for this clear example of congregations doing so surely won't convince people who want a local-church treasury and treasurer and never any other church giving except through that treasury.

In fact, it's YOU putting the treasurer and treasury into it. Paul surely didn't do so.

It's not legalism to read the Bible and give your best effort to understanding what it does say. It's legalism when you decide that you now know what it means and then you demand that everyone agree with you -- or else.

Am I legalistic? I think not. Am I sure that I'm right? Yes, indeed. Will I claim you're not a Christian if you disagree with me? Surely not on THIS question! I think it's worth discussing. I'm sure it's not worth debating or quarreling about.

Wally, I told Tom you were legalistic. He's been accused often of being legalistic, I'm sure. And so have I. My judgment was based on your reading out of the faith people I know are brethren loved by God. I understand that we each must decide who we can admire and share close fellowship with here on earth. But when there are fights among the faithful, we all may be at fault. And we each need to be charitable in our treatment of one another.

Tom and I don't agree about the use of musical instruments in God's service. You side with Tom on the matter. I know Tom is my brother in Christ despite our different views on this matter. About Jesus and every important matter, I find Tom truthful and faithful and admirably knowledgeable. I suspect you're of the same variety.

I'm determined that I want to avoid putting doctrine INTO the Bible. I feel that's exactly what you both are doing in connection with a church (congregational or any organization of congregations, in fact) treasury and treasurer. Paul does not say the Corinthian church(es) are to select honest, dependable, faithful brethren and bring to their feet the gifts intended for Paul to carry on to Judea.

Since the verse can just as easily mean for each donor to hold and set aside in his own personal safekeeping, to hand to Paul when Paul gets there, I see every reason not to put into the verse more than Paul put there by inspiration. You want it to include things I can see are NOT there. You want to say they ARE there. I can only point out that they are absolutely NOT there even by clear implication. I did point this out. Thanks for considering it.

Your method does indeed call for a treasurer. Since Paul, here and elsewhere, says absolutely nothing about a treasurer or treasury, I wonder why you feel sure that he wanted to teach the necessity of such a servant in Christ's church. Shame on you if it's to create funds for a professional clergy or for church property. To accompany Paul and the money, Paul called for them to appoint faithful brethren who could make sure the money went where it was intended to go.

There's no evidence that early Christians felt they "owed" to church leaders any portion of God's money He had entrusted to them. Peter clearly teaches otherwise. Anyone was free to give. Anyone was free to NOT give. Why do OUR teachers claim that everyone MUST give, and then the church leaders (the elders, ideally) have complete say over how "God's money" is spent? It can't be denied that most church teachers in this generation do make such claims. It's equally obvious that this is not taught in the inspired writings. [This above, and other remarks following are in response to the note first quoted above from Tom.]

How does this compare with my passing a law against the use of
instrumental music in congregational settings? Then, of course,
demanding conformity TO my law. There'll be a similarity if I set up a "pure" anti-praying-to-the-Spirit church. Do you suppose we should DO that?

You might be able to see that the difference is in what I'm thinking
and saying. I'm not demanding that you conform to my view, not
threatening to withdraw fellowship if you can't see it MY way. The
legalist is sectarian. My view about the Holy Spirit's person may be
unpopular (it obviously is), but if any fellowship is withdrawn,
it'll not be ME doing the withdrawing.

But I'll freely speak up to explain why I think as I do and prefer
that my brethren act as I suggest in the matter. Of course some will
pay no attention, and others will be disagreeable in various ways.
Many who agree with me will feel it wiser to not say so, and that's
all right too.

I'll never choose to go along with anyone who ADDS requirements to
what the Bible teaches, whether positive or negative requirements.

Human laws need to be recognized for what they are. Then those who
choose to follow them are free to do so, just as others are totally FREE to not follow any man-made religious law.

A brother, now terribly infirm at a local nursing home where I see him at least once a week, was a faithful member at Park Plaza church here in Joplin from its beginning. All along, he thought it wrong to have a meal in church-owned buildings. (He was wrong, of course). So he chose to not attend any fellowship meals where eating was done in the "fellowship hall" of the church building. Those who wanted to eat together did so. He wanted not to do so, so he didn't. He didn't make it an issue, nor did anyone feel unkindly of him for choosing to not be with the group who ate.

Most of our differences could be solved just as easily. It's when we demand that everyone conform to our preferences that legalism rears its ugly head and separations ensue. We are required to separate ourselves from those who deny the deity of Jesus, who do NOT believe in the resurrection, who ARE contentious, who are morally impure in a way that others can know about. So we've chosen to pass on the tests outlined in the Word, and WE separate over whether or not people are going to have a piano in the unscriptural church building. Or whether they feel free to use individual cups in serving the Supper. And so on. And those who MAKE the separations are the ones at fault, not the ones who exercise the freedom that is part of the gospel Way.

Same logic? Not on your life! Does it sound the same? No doubt.

Proper Bible interpretation calls for us to think as clearly as we possibly can about what the Word means, and then direct our steps as wisely as possible according to what we think the Word means. It's highly IMPROPER for me to demand that everyone agree with MY every decision (the word I used there was DEMAND, not request). The agreement we must find is that we each must determine to respect what the Word of God DOES say and always live according to what we understand God to want us to do.

That does NOT mean that we'll all agree on every point. But we'll share the same humble, teachable attitude, and we'll be brothers in Christ. Those who are proud and arrogant are piece-makers. Our goal must be to seek UNITY in Christ. 

From: Arthur Brown <abrown@tecmasters.com>
To: "'outreach@sofnet.com'" ~ Subject: RE: Prejudices
Date sent: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:48:53 -0500
Comments about Viewpoint Study 000 Seeing Jesus

Dear Brother Ray,

Thanks for the personal note. I've started receiving emails from several sources since making that remark at Brother Cecil's Web site. I've been reading yours regularly and have found them helpful in my own studies. My comments must be brief because this is my office machine and I generally only read personal email at lunch or after hours.

My thoughts on the nature of the Spirit have been shaped by many of the things you cite, and by other, sometimes secular, readings. The Spirit is all the things cited in the message; comforter, guide in worship, etc.

But look again at what is worship. Worship is living a submitted life, allowing Christ to be "in charge." This is hard for most of us, and for me, especially. I also consider that, and with the understanding that, as this message points out, that Christ has dominion over "all flesh", that this world, that we are in but not to be "of," is the domain of Satan, (often referred to as the "prince of this world").

Our physical selves are part of this world, and will return to it, according to scripture. Are they not under the dominion of the evil one unless we thoughtfully submit to continual guidance of the Holy Spirit? (I point this out because many brothers and sisters think the struggle to submit our lives is a struggle of our will against the Spirit. We are told to be discerning of the spirits and their influences. I think we fail to do this when we do not understand that to not submit to God and Christ is instead to actively submit to Satan!).

Satan is called "the Deceiver." Think in terms of being in a building, looking out a window, with your face so near the glass that you lose comprehension of the window, the building, the room you are standing in etc., as your focus is solely on the "outside." You also lose awareness of what or who may be in the room with you. If the Holy Spirit has not been invited in and given control, does not mean you are alone or not subject to influences of other entities.

If worship is living "for Jesus" in the world, it means doing for, speaking for, acting for and experiencing for Jesus. If we (the Church) are indeed the "body of Christ," what does that mean? It means to me, that if Christ is to accomplish the great commission, if the world is won by Christ, if the poor are aided and the distressed comforted by Christ is it is through us, his body, doing his will.

The nature of the spirit is as you described, the seal of Christ's ownership. It is Christ's own spirit sent to us all. I don't worry about how Christ accomplishes this, God's and Christ's omnipresence being something I'll accept by faith and have explained in detail when I see them face to face. The Spirit is also, in my understanding, the conduit by which Christ has influence in our lives, strengthened by study and prayer. His purpose is to also exclude for us the evil influences which will surely be there if he is not. I don't worship the Spirit separate from Christ anymore than I worship Christ separate from God. Christ is "God with us." The Spirit is Christ with us in this present age.

While I too, actively consider and study the nature of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, in order to better understand their workings in our lives and how to better serve them, I do not think that these should be sticking points between us. What I've written here is my own opinion on how the Spirit operates in our lives, not to be confused with scripture, which goes into less detail that we will be required to strengthen our faith as much as anything. I think of all three entities reverently as they are all connected in my mind and connect me to my creator through Christ. Other's may not share this, my opinion, but it is to assist me in my understanding, and my actions here in this life. If it may assist others, too, give God the glory! ~ Arthur Brown

To move on to Viewpoint Study #1, click here.
    Additional Comments on Brief Sample Bible Study from Ray Downen. For Ray's concluding remarks, click HERE.