Viewpoint Brief Bible Study #33 |
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JESUS calls US to be |
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The Christian religion is the worship and service of Jesus Christ. It’s not Mary we worship, but her Son. We worship neither saints, angels, a law code, nor even God’s Spirit. It’s JESUS who is to be honored. The Bible is our guide. |
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(Additional comments from Pete Petree
and Rick Prugh
about Viewpoint study #27)Ray's latest reply to Pete --
Pete, You're a man after my heart! Debates are for trying to win against an opponent. Discussions are for learning with a friend. It's a joy to win a friend. And you're a POETIC friend, loving words as I do!
> From: Petree, Pete <Pete.Petree@COMPAQ.com>
> To: 'OCS Ray Downen' <outreach@sofnet.com>
> Subject: RE: Discussions On Christian Worship
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 9:39 AM
>Excellent points, Ray. Discussion is a GOOD. (It's a personal thing with me, but I have trouble with arguments and debates involving God's word because that too often implies winners vs losers, blistering commentary, launching volleys of killer Bible facts, etc. Too often this is (apparently) done for the glory of the winner, not God. It may not imply that to others; I just wanted you to understand where I sit.).
I like discussions better because, for me, they include asking, answering, clarifying, learning, building, concluding, bridging, sharing, changing, resolving and appreciation/acceptance.
So, yes, let's discuss. Here are the discussion keys for me, briefly as I get ready to start my workday. Notice that these are for me, not Paul or Jesus. They wouldn't get off-track as I do:
It's important for me to know why I'm in a discussion in the first place. No matter how the discussion got started, a motivation for me to be in it surfaces sooner or later. I have to check my motivation continuously, being on my guard for attitudes that don't exalt the Father or help my brother.
It's important for me, while in any discussion, to test the water. Is the temperature going up? Are other aspects surfacing (i.e. emotions), making our discussion more tenuous? Are we generating more heat than light? What can I do in the conversation to increase the learning and not fan the flames?
Borrowing from Cecil (Hook, our mutual friend), am I maintaining an open mind with no apprehension about what I might learn during the discussion? What if my brother and I look at the same scripture passage(s), and only opinion is left as to what it means? How should I handle it if we don't share the same opinion?
What will I do if, during the discussion, I encounter issues where I really need more study before discussing them? Am I willing to hold my comments until I've done so?
Overall....how are we doing? Are each of us even more dependent on and committed to Jesus or was it just another "mano a mano"?
Your point is well taken, Ray. If you believe something you should support it, and be willing to discuss it. No question there.
What is key is listening to someone discuss a topic. Eventually, it becomes apparent who the glory of the exchange is intended for. Denny (Boultinghouse) does a great job of making that clear for me. As you said, his kindness level is high, but he also steers us off the red flag (which really doesn't need extended conversation and is only fuel for debates) because there is a main issue relating to a condition of the heart that we ought to work on.
Hey, I'd better run, but I do appreciate your thoughts, Ray. Thanks for the emails.
> Pete Petree> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: OCS Ray Downen [SMTP:outreach@sofnet.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 2:19 PM
> >To: Petree, Pete
> >Subject: Re: Discussions On Christian Worship
> >Pete, How good to hear from you! One of the studies I've sent out points out that there are differences between arguments, discussions, debates, etc.
The only N.T. verse which speaks of lifting hands in prayer is a call for us to be holy and to avoid fruitless arguments. I don't understand Paul to be saying we should never discuss our differences, that we must bury our thoughts and never express them for fear of someone disagreeing.
I see no way of growing in Christ unless we fearlessly speak up if something seems not quite right, then being honest with one another to explain why we do or do not like particular ways of doing things. It's not at all wrong for Cecil (Hook) to disagree with legalistic brethren. He is NEVER little or mean about his disagreements with legalism. He does not insult those with whom he differs, but he does differ.
Surely you see no wrong in such discussion. He does not usually publish the views of those who are wrong, as I may. But he certainly does not disparage them or their right to think and express their thoughts!
And Denny (Boultinghouse in IMAGE) has done a splendid job of presenting views in IMAGE for 12 years now that are not at all popular among some in the Churches of Christ. I hope this has not caused you to want to chastise him for differing with those views he thinks are wrong. He has loved and taught in very kind ways. But if he had sought to do only what everyone would have agreed with, he'd have quit after the first issue!
I surely agree that it's wrong to be ugly in disagreeing with anyone. If I'm being ugly, every friend, new or old, should point it out to me and pray with me that correction can be made!!!
Meanwhile, I believe it important that no Christian should be encouraged to believe that the Old Testament is no different for Christian doctrine than the N.T. is. We do NOT look to the O.T. for Christian teachings, but instead to the N.T.
And we'd better realize that the gospels record the Lord's teaching to JEWS who were under the law, so that we have to update it in the light of apostolic teaching to Christians rather than just assuming that what Jesus taught Jews also equally applies to folks who are NOT Jews and who are NOT under the Mosaic Law.
I hope I can teach this without being ugly or mean to anyone at all. I sorrow for brothers who fret when teaching is given that they don't immediately agree with. I wish I could teach as kindly and wisely as Cecil Hook. I do my best.
Thanks again for writing. I hope I'll hear from you often.
> > ---------- AND THIS WAS PETE'S FIRST NOTE in response
> >> From: Petree, Pete <Pete.Petree@COMPAQ.com>
> >> To: 'OCS Ray Downen' <outreach@sofnet.com>
> >> Subject: RE: Discussions On Christian Worship
> >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 12:16 PMRay: Thanks for including me in some of this dialog. I am VERY appreciative of your devotion and desire to help others in their spiritual growth. But, I have an observation to make and am interested in hearing your opinion. And, BTW, I have been thinking about this for a while so don't feel like this one message from you triggered the question.
As I read some of these and other discussions going on in other forums, frankly, I am having a major struggle with the place of issues like the (note from Ray copied) below in my daily fight to give control of my life to Jesus. As these and other discussions proceed, they always (Ray's note: NOT always, only sometimes) seem to spiral into the traditional battles over form...OR, if not over form, then merely contests of conviction, if you will.
And, regardless of what the participants say ("I love my brothers and sisters in Christ... I don't bind my opinions on others"), most discussions are very pointed, loaded with sarcasm and decidedly lacking in the understanding and loving guidance that I'm convinced I'd receive from Jesus were I to talk to Him.
Finally, they rarely seem to end peacefully with one or both participants more enlightened and in harmony with God. I have never met you, Ray, and, yet I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt about your love for the Lord. So, help me out with this.
When I read the words of Jesus he points dead at my sin. He convicts me with no chance of parole. It brings tears to my eyes, and I go to my knees, knowing I'm unworthy and begging His forgiveness, not cursing His name for finding me out.
When I read the words of my Christian brothers and sisters as they discuss issues between them, I get tense...irritable, even angry as I read the dialog. Many times I can't even finish the piece. It brings out the parent in me, and I feel like I want to spank some kids who got out of hand, rather than sit back and glean for helpful information I can use. Why? We're talking about souls here...we're talking about eternity, and it matters.
What's going on, Ray? Your thoughts, Cecil? Am I alone in asking this question? -- Pete Petree
[COMMENT -- Some people do LIKE to argue. Isn't Pete right in
describing exchanges you also have heard? Wasn't it great to read
his description of how things should NOT be???]
---------------------------AND RICK PRUGH on the same subject:
First, my latest reply to Rick --
Rick, How right you are. Every fact in the O.T. is true, and is useful to those who seek to know Jehovah God. When folks get mixed up and think commands of the O.T. apply to saints of God today, they are no longer rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Together, let's ask our brethren to work even harder at RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth.
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> From: Rick Prugh <rprugh@umr.edu>
> To: OCS Ray Downen <outreach@sofnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Discussions On Christian Worship
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 9:41 AM
>Ray, We are in complete agreement that we do not get doctrine from the Old Testament. That law was nailed to the cross. Of course, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
I enjoy your column and the thoughts it provokes. Thanks for answering, brother. -- Rick
> >
Rick, The only disagreement we might have, since you're so right about what you're saying otherwise, is that it's a NON-ISSUE whether or not we get doctrine from the Old Testament.
You'll notice I'm not telling any brother or sister that they must or must not lift their hands in singing ditties. Surely you are right that it's is a matter of opinion where each is free to do according to personal preference. My objection is to a preacher advising, on the basis of Psalm 63, that Christians SHOULD do so.
Nor do I instruct anyone that it's a sin to clap their hands in church, either for rhythm or applause. But I do feel free to express MY opinion about the change from participatory sharing to a performer/audience situation in our church gatherings.
You're entirely right that this must be a matter of opinion, and you're free to lift hands or clap hands while I refrain. But I would like it if the leader didn't call for EVERYONE to clap or wave. I especially would prefer that we not be asked to clap our hands in applause for GOD!
Thanks for sharing! It's a pleasure to hear from you...
> >
> >----------
> >> From: Rick Prugh <rprugh@umr.edu>
> >> To: OCS Ray Downen <outreach@sofnet.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Discussions On Christian Worship
> >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:46 PM
> >>Ray, I can't believe so much time and computer space has been spent on an issue that is really a non-issue. According to Hebrews 8:13 - 9:10, there are no longer REGULATED, COMMANDED, outward acts of worship. Those were crucified on the cross with the old covenant. The only regulations governing the assembly in the new covenant can be summed up by the following principles:
1) Whatever you do in the assembly, do it in an orderly, non-chaotic fashion.
2) Don't do things that will hurt or disrespect others around you (i.e. "Eating a meal while leaving others out).
We are not commanded to assume any certain posture or use a certain type of liturgy for praying, singing, baptizing, and listening and responding to sermons. If I don't believe I should raise my hands, I shouldn't raise my hands. But I shouldn't look down on those who choose to worship God in this posture. If someone wants to clap when singing, that's their business. I'm not in the judging business. If they are uplifted and edified by that practice, more power to them. If I'm not uplifted by that, I am commanded to submit my will to others. I don't have to clap, but I don't have the right to demand that they stop clapping.
Thanks, -- Rick
Brief Bible Study #33 from Ray Downen. To go back to
Viewpoint's first page, click < here. Or here to go on to Viewpoint Study 34. For Ray's concluding remarks, click HERE.
