Jesus calls us to worship God, NOT idols/demons.
Christians love, honor, and serve Jesus Christ. The Bible is our guide. We CAN understand the Bible. It's not Mary we worship, but her Son (who is also God's unique Son). Rather than saints, angels, doctrinal systems, or even the Holy Spirit, we worship JESUS and His Father!
as of
9/10
2000

hand reaching out
send Ray an e-mail note
Celebrating "Christmas"    
May Not Be for Christians!     

Including comments by Alan Horne, Rick Prugh, Dan Johnson, Gary Ottoson, Tom Woody, Matthew Brock, Gene Shelburne, Sam Stone, and Peter Nuthak.
I started something when I sent out a "Christmas" greeting to several e-mail friends. I suggested the Bible didn't teach that Christians should observe the birth of Christ by any celebration at all. Replying, several suggested that they found the Christmas season a good time to reach some who were much more receptive to the gospel than at other times during the year. Others saw danger in what seemed to them to be flirting with the devil by practicing pagan things in the name of the baby Jesus.

I liked remarks that came in from many, but especially Gene Shelburne's comments below following some others. And since Gene refers to what Alan Horne wrote, Alan's remarks will follow next:

Subject: Xmas
Date sent: Mon, 29 Dec 1997
 
Dear Ray, I'd like to add to some of the comments on Xmas. No doubt you are familiar with the questions of the date of Christ's birth and the Babylonian origin of many Xmas practices. Such practices were clearly opposed by OT prophets. (I'd be happy to provide references to anyone interested.)

These were adapted by Rome and adopted by Protestants and now by some Restorationists! Is this the restoration of Bible Christianity or is it Baal worship?

The origin of the word Christmas according to World Book and others is 'a mass for Christ.' We remember what our Lord commanded us to remember -- his death and resurrection in the Lord's Supper. We do this as a memorial, not as a re-enactment of his crucifixion. We believe that Christ died once for sins, not that he is continually re-offered by the power of the Romish priests.

If we can hold to Bible truth, then we can preach wherever and whenever we are given the opportunity, but the end does not justify the means. -- Alan Horne

COMMENTS -- From: Rick Prugh
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997
Subject: Re: New Or Old?

> Ray, Why are people so uptight about Christmas? None of us in the church are keeping it as a condition of righteousness. When that is the case, the apostle Paul says in Romans 14 that it is okay for a man to consider one day more sacred than another, as long as he does so to the Lord. After all, that is exactly what we do with Sunday. This day was, also, a pagan day set aside for worshipping the Sun god.

While we have scriptural record of early Christians keeping this day as more sacred than others, we have no record that they did it because of command. In fact, they probably just started doing it because it was the day of our Lord's resurrection, so it became known as the Lord's day. It was NOT set aside by ordinance.

This former pagan sacred day became the most holy of days to Christians. Later on, Christians again adopted a pagan day and made something holy (set apart) of it by celebrating the birth of our savior. After all, there could have been no death and resurrection had there been no birth.

Paul's disappointment expressed about keeping special days in Galatians was based on the legalistic, Judaizing apostasy that required Christians to keep Jewish tradition to be considered righteous. Unfortunately, we have Christians today who believe that they should attend Sunday assemblies to be considered righteous. They have it backwards, they should want to attend Sunday assemblies, or assemblies on any other days, because they are righteous.

So, let's lighten up about Christmas. We know Christ's birth was probably nearer to April than December. Big deal. If a man, or woman, wants to keep a day as special and does so to the glory of the Lord, then more power to them. Your brother, Rick Prugh

From: Dan Johnson
Date sent: Sat, 27 Dec 1997

Dear Ray, Thanks for passing my Christmas comments on to your readers. Yes, I did preach Jesus (not Santa Clause) Christmas eve, and I hope it was both encouraging and challenging. I began this message with a quote from Cal Thomas in that day's paper: "Almost everyone likes a baby, including the Bethlehem infant. Not everyone likes the adult that infant became because not everyone accepts His message, which tells us we are not dysfunctional victims in need of reform but sinners in need of redemption."

I then preached John 10:22-38, Christmas eve also being the first day of Hanukkah or Feast of Dedication as in the NIV, and developed the sermon as follows:
Jesus' statement: "I and the father are one."
Jesus' challenge: "The miracles I do in my father's name speak for me."
Jesus' question: "...what about the one whom the father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?"

The message closed with John 12:46 "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."

Blessings on you and yours, Dan <><

LATER RESPONSES CAME --
Subject: Innocent Victims? An Exchange With GARY OTTOSON
> On Thursday, 25 Dec 1997
 
<< I wrote — ...Christians should be sharing and giving EVERY day. We should be rejoicing and loving others EVERY season. It's surely not a bad thing that we humans have set up a time of year when all are reminded to both be good and to also do good! And a happy new year also! >>

 To which Gary replied --
> From: Gary Ottoson
> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997
> Subject: Re: Season's Greetings 1997-1998

> Dear Ray, >YOUR way of looking at Christmas/New Years makes sense (and celebrating does, too:) but I'd like to know how to define "idolatry." Tom Woody, I think, connected it to "seducing spirits," e.g. demons. Isn't idolatry basically man replacing the non-material God with a material god (see Romans 1:23)? If so, where did the negative connotation (that idols are demons "seducing" us) originate? Also, if demons are "seducing" people, wouldn't we be their victims, not primarily responsible for the idolatry? -- Gary
My reply -- Date sent: Wed, 31 Dec 1997
Gary, Thanks for caring and sharing! It's great to have friends -- any time.

I'll forward your questions to Tom who may choose to make an observation or two about them. As for idolatry and seducing spirits, our enemy Satan is ever eager for us to worship something or some one (or some ones) other than the true God. The way in which Satan works is by making other things or persons so attractive to us that we are "seduced" by our own lusts into sin. Yes?

Figuratively this is spoken of as "seducing spirits" working against our salvation and service in truth. But this is not exactly "idols" made into "demons seducing us." Your description is less than accurate at this point.

In one sense, those who succumb to the temptations are victims, as you suggest. But the truth is that God DOES provide a way of escape with every temptation that reaches us, and we are responsible to hang on and hold on and RESIST the temptation(s).

Which is why Jesus built an assembly (church being the word of choice here) where we'll be encouraged and built up so as to be ABLE to follow the Way rather than join those who belong to Satan on the broad way that leads to destruction. The word "victim" suggests innocence. But we, like Eve and Adam, are not innocent when we choose to sin.

I don't agree with Tom and others who have responded as he did on this subject that it's wrong to join our neighbors in celebration in respect to the birth of Christ. Since the season is now called after the Christ, I feel it grand that congregations choose to have public celebrations to honor the Christ child and the Father who sent Him to earth.

I think it pathetic if any church should bring in pagan ways of celebrating, such as a Ho-Ho-Ho personification (heavyweight, uniformed in red and white) of goodness and gift-giving, or trees or logs or holly or songs glorifying such items of celebration. As I believe most of us do, I commend the honoring of Jesus, the celebration of His birth.

I do not accept the innocence of wicked deeds performed by ignorant or uncaring persons. Jesus doesn't have a middle name of Santa or Rudolph. But several fine Christmas carols are available for saints to use to honor and remember the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. And I see no wrong in giving love presents to people we love. It's not just near the end of the year that some of us worship idols -- and we're guilty and responsible for idolatry whenever we succumb to it!
——

With this reply to Gary, I enclosed the following comments by Gene Shelburne on this same subject.

From: Gene Shelburne
Date sent: Tue, 30 Dec 1997
To: Ray Downen
Subject: Re: Christ Is Born

Alan Horne says concerning Christmas festivities, << Such practices were clearly opposed by OT prophets. >> And he goes on to trace Babylonian and Roman Catholic roots for Christmas observances. Ray, it has always amused me a bit to observe that the only people in town who think Christmas is a pagan holiday are the Jehovah's Witnesses and a few folks like us, who can't seem to shed our Puritan roots. All the pagans in town think Christmas is a Christian observance. Now that's downright strange, is it not?

Let me inject one biblical insight before I sign off. Alan affirms that the OT prophets opposed Christmas (which seems strange, since nobody thought of Christmas until several hundred years after the last OT prophet died -- but still I do understand what Alan is saying here, so he won't need to try to explain it further).

My own study of God's word, however, leads me to a conclusion 180 degrees from Alan's (which may explain why honest followers of Jesus need to learn to love each other in spite of disagreements about such matters).

My own Scripture study impresses me with the fact that God saw the wisdom of revitalizing Israel's faith annually with the great annual feasts that celebrated his goodness and his saving power. Every year in Israel the children learned and the old folks re-learned the power and greatness and goodness of their Lord as they kept the rituals of the religious calendar God had given them.

And for those who would be sternly literal, it might be worth noticing that even feasts never mentioned in the Jewish Scriptures got added to that calendar without God's [announced] disapproval. In fact, Jesus appears to have observed the non-biblical Feast of Dedication in John 10 without a word of caution or hint of hesitation.

If God felt that a religious calendar would keep his people faithful through the centuries, who are we to question such wisdom? I know that our Puritan fathers raised such questions. But I also grew up believing that we are to follow Scripture and not Puritans on such matters.

With all kindness I suggest to Alan that his anti-Christmas sentiments may arise more from Puritanism than from the Bible, since the weight of Scripture seems to support a religious calendar that points annually to the saving acts of God. In the Incarnation and the Resurrection we have events far more worth celebrating than the Passover.

That the God who created Passover would be bothered by a similar celebration at Easter or at Christmas stretches my imagination. (About as far as that same imagination gets stretched when I hear one of my fellow-non-instrumental preachers trying to explain to me that the God who welcomed the symphonic worship of Solomon's temple somehow lost his ear for such praise after Jesus died).

I think God must be flabbergasted to read our e-mails and church bulletins and find out what all He's supposed to be against. -- Gene Shelburne, Anna Street Church of Christ, Amarillo, TX

Then TOM WOODY spoke up again. And I had considerably more to think about!
From: Thomas W Woody
Date sent: Wed, 31 Dec 1997
Subject: Re: Innocent Victims?

Ray, Thanks for passing on the latest responses to our discussion. It sounds like nerves have been touched. I will try to elaborate on some points I made which have been challenged. I appreciate the ones who have disagreed with some of the comments Alan Horne and I have written, and will attempt to clarify certain points I have made about idolatry if you can patiently bear with me.

Did you ever study the Old Testament and wonder how God's own people continually lapsed into idolatry, the same idolatry that came from Babylon and eventually brought them there? We are still the same weak human beings who like sheep wander from God. And the one who entices and seduces (not forces) us through our lusts to wander from God is the Devil [who has helpers we call "demons"].

Leviticus 17:7 - "And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto demons, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations."
Gary asks where the idea that demons are seducing us through idolatry came from. The answer is that it came from Leviticus 17:7, in the context of why Israel was to bring their sacrifices to the sanctuary of God (His temple,) not do it out on their own in their own way in the field. Here are other references in the Old and New Testaments: ("devils" in KJV is [corrected to] replaced by "demons" here)

Deuteronomy 32:17 "They sacrificed unto demons, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new [gods that] came newly up, whom your fathers feared not."

2 Chronicles 11:15 "And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the demons, and for the calves which he had made."

Psalm 106:37 "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons."

1 Corinthians 10:20 "But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God: and I would not that you should have fellowship with demons."

1 Corinthians 10:21 "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of demons" (referring to brethren who just wanted a good steak dinner at the idol's temple, regardless of the message it sent to weaker brethren or the world).

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons;" (I Kings 22 tells of the "lying spirit" which worked in the false prophets who encouraged Ahab to his downfall)

Revelation 9:20 "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:"

Revelation 16:14 "For they are the spirits of demons, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Revelation 18:2 "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

When compared to 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ("For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.") we see that Satan's demons are transformed into ministers of righteousness to seduce God's people away from him.

God allowed this to happen under the Old Covenant as well -

Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, [2] And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; [3] you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [4] You shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall serve him, and cleave unto him."

This is a way of proving the Bride's faithfulness, to see if she wants to really do what God says, or follow idolatry, which is a way of worshipping ourselves; giving God the gift that WE like. It is a proof of whether we truly will do His will in the eternal home of the righteous.

<< The more I think about this comment, the more I'm led to wonder whether Tom is correct that God tempts (tests) us who today are His people in the way Tom here suggests. What do YOU think? Is Tom suggesting that GOD tempts us? >>
God reproved his people through the OT prophets and referred to them in their unfaithfulness as "whoring" after other gods. Today I believe we are tested through the apostate church which is filled with these seducing spirits or demons and is the source, as I wrote before, of the holidays under consideration.

The reference I made to the high places in the O.T. was to show that idolatry frequently used the Lord's Name in vain. While worshipping God in the high places was a lesser offence than bringing the idols right into Jerusalem and the sanctuary, it was still spoken of in the Scriptures in a negative light. Men still think that if something wears the name of Jesus it must be good.

Aaron declared the golden calf feast at the foot of Mt. Sinai a "feast to Jehovah" (Exodus 32:4,5). Did God accept it because it wore His Name?

As far as most of the world "thinking" Christmas is Christian, have we forgotten that they also think that the Pope and his apostate church are "the church"? Even though he claims to be the head of the church on earth, the vicar of Christ, the rector ekklesia, does this make him so? Because December 25th is declared by him to be the celebration of Christ's birthday, does it make it so? His mixture of Babylonian idolatry with the worship of Jesus will be as acceptable to God now as mixing it was under the Old covenant.

Rome has promoted the idolatrous mother and child worship under the names of our blessed Savior and his earthly mother. That is what the OT prophets were opposing, and that is what December 25th is about. Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17,18 describe the worship of the "queen of heaven" being reproved by the prophet. It is no coincidence that Rome has also given the same title to Mary.

I think we also know that because a Jehovah's Witness believes something doesn't automatically make it wrong.

Deception is making something appear to be something it is not. The Devil is a liar and a deceiver. He knows where to work on us. If he can't seduce as a serpent, he will deceive as a minister of righteousness. Those who are deceived are victims, but they are responsible, just like Eve was in the beginning. This is why the Bible says in several places, "BE NOT deceived," a solemn warning that places the responsibility on us.

The lake of fire will be inhabited not only by those who make lies, but also by those who love lies and who believe lies. It is a two-way street. Deceivers thrive because people want to be deceived [in order to make ourselves think that what we want to do is in fact what we ought to do]. We cannot be disillusioned unless we have an illusion to begin with. We must love truth, not lies.

And if we won't be deceived, persecution and threat of bodily harm is his last resort, as is the case with some brethren in other countries today. We must not grow careless and lazy regarding the wiles of our adversary.

Thank you for your patience in reading this and bearing with me. - Tom.

  Brief Bible Study #97 from Ray Downen

——— PART TWO ———–

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons."

I feel that Tom Woody makes a good case for our need to avoid pagan practices which Satan dresses up attractively for us. On January 4th I've received comments from Gary Ottoson in which he disagrees with what Tom has said. Gary's remarks follow. What do YOU Think?

Date sent: Sun, 4 Jan 1998
Subject: Re: Innocent Victims?
From: (Gary Ottoson)

Ray, a two-part response to Study #97:

(1) Summary: Please refer to the (very) 'New International Dictionary of OT Theology and Exegesis' (ISBN#0-310-20219-1) , Vol. 4. p. 715, ff., article on Idolatry by Judith Hadley:
"Contrary to many assertions, the OT does not see images as being devilish or as representations of aspects of evil spirits. The two passages used to suggest such a meaning are Deut. 32:17 and especially Ps. 106:37. Though the NIV translates demons, this is more daemons in the ancient Greek sense than NT usage...The rest of the OT rejects the idea of idols representing evil spirits. For OT monotheism there is only one God (Deut. 32:29; Isa. 45:5-7, 18), and there is no concept of evil spirits (morally evil beings). There may be a residue of belief in 'hobgoblins' (Eichrodt 2:223). It is a minor theme within the NT that "the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons" [1 Cor 10:20], but not one that comes out of the OT."

(2) Comments.

Tom: <<Gary asks where the idea that demons are seducing us through idolatry came from. The answer is that it came from Leviticus 17:7- (in the context of why Israel was to bring their sacrifices to God's sanctuary, not do it out on their own in their own way in the field). >>
Gary: Sacrificing to demons/whoring after demons means just that. There is no reference to idols/idolatry in this verse (Leviticus 17:7f.).
Tom: <<Here are other references in the O.T. : Deuteronomy 32:17 >>
Gary: Plainly, these three references prove one thing, that demon worship and idolatry are not the same. 2 Chronicles 11:15 refers to three separate, distinct forms of pagan worship,
1) in the high places set aside for other gods (not God),
2) unto demons,
3) 'for the calves.' There is no reference here to seduction of demons via idols.
Tom: <<..in the NT.. 1 Corinthians 10:20 1 Corinthians 10:21 (referring to brethren who just wanted a good steak dinner at the [should be demons', not idols'] temple, regardless of the message it sent to weaker brethren or the world). >>
Gary: There is no reference to idolatry/seduction by demons via idols here; but only to sacrificing to/fellowshipping with demons per se, i.e. followers of Christ are instructed in these verses to abandon demons.
Tom: <<1 Timothy 4:1 (I Kings 22 tells of the "lying spirit" which worked in the false prophets who encouraged Ahab to his downfall)" >>
Gary: The concept 'Seducing spirits' has no connection to idolatry here, but is connected only to/directly to 'doctrines of demons.' Paul is telling Timothy not to confuse 'sound doctrine of God' with any other high-sounding religious words which, then, are demonic (words).
Tom: << Revelation 9:20, Revelation 16:14, and Revelation 18:2.

When compared to 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, we see that Satan's demons are transformed into ministers of righteousness to seduce God's people away from him. >>

Gary: Paul says demons 'transform themselves' into 'apostles' (not idols) -- no one does it for them. Demon worship and idolatry are distinct forms of pagan practice. The verses cited above help make the case that the Bible contains no case for 'demon-seduced idolatry.'

However, 'seduction by demons,' which is a distinct pagan practice, separate from idolatry, is wreaking havoc on people. Paul and Revelation make it quite clear that demons (help) rule the unsaved World. Demons conduct a 'ministry of righteousness' but do works for which they will be judged. -- Gary
——–

Subject: Re: Innocent Victims?
From: Thomas W Woody
Date sent: Mon, 05 Jan 1998

Gary, (and any other interested readers) Thank you for your reply. I will attempt to answer your comments with brackets, if you will bear with me. -- Tom
 

On Sun, 4 Jan 1998
Gary Ottoson writes:
>Ray, a two-part response to Study #97:
>(1) Summary: Please refer to the (very) 'New International Dictionary of OT Theology and Exegesis' (ISBN#0-310-20219-1) , Vol. 4. p. 715,ff., article on Idolatry by Judith Hadley:
>"Contrary to many assertions, the OT does not see images as being devilish or as representations of aspects of evil spirits [Tom asks -- Are the graven images prohibited in Exodus 20 really just the product of man's imagination?] The two passages [Tom -- There are actually four (Leviticus 17:7; Deuteronomy 32:17; 2 Chronicles 11:15; Psalm 106:37)] used to suggest such a meaning are Deuteronomy 32:17 and especially Psalm 106:37. Though the NIV translates demons, this is more _daemons_ in the ancient Greek sense than NT usage...
[Tom -- so who are these demons; are they not from the Devil?]
The rest of the OT rejects the idea of idols representing evil spirits. [Tom -- Are we to just take her word for this blanket statement without proof? Why would we unless we just wanted to?]

For OT monotheism there is only one God (Deuteronomy 32:29; Isaiah 45:5-7, 18), [Tom -- No one disagrees on how many gods there are, the issue is how did idolatry get started and how is it perpetuated in the world] and there is no concept of evil spirits (morally evil beings). [Tom -- Can we agree with her that there is 'no concept of evil spirits' in the OT? Those who study the Bible may not quickly agree!]

"There may be a residue of belief in 'hobgoblins' (Eichrodt 2:223). [Tom -- What book of the Bible is that?]

It is a minor theme [Tom -- How many times does GOD need to speak before we get the point or should be concerned?] within the NT that "the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons" [1 Cor 10:20], but not one that comes out of the OT."

[Tom -- But the OT says the very same thing! I don't know who Judith Hadley is, but her quotation here doesn't reflect well on her knowledge of the Bible. Maybe my Bible Dictionary isn't new enough, but the information I found in it is contrary to the "(very) 'New International Dictionary of OT Theology and Exegesis' (ISBN#0-310-20219-1)"

Here are a couple of quotes from "Fausset's Bible Dictionary" 1971 edition, which I just looked up: "Behind the idols, though nonentities themselves, lurk real demons, to whom consciously or unconsciously the worship is paid, as inspiration declares (Deuteronomy 32:17), "devils" lasheedim, "destroyers"; as Satan's name Apollyon means; slavish fear being the prompting motive, not love, the idol feaster has his fellowship with demons (I Corinthians 10:20), even as the communicant in the Lord's Supper has by faith real fellowship with the Lord's body once for all sacrificed.." - article on Idol, Idolatry - p. 305.

"Scripture teaches that in idolatry the demons are the real workers behind the idol, which is a mere 'nothing.' Compare 1 Corinthians 10:19-21; 1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 9:20. Compare Deuteronomy 32:17, Hebrew sheedim, 'lords' (I Corinthians 8:5); Acts 16:16, 'a spirit of divination' (Gr. of Python, an idol); Acts 17:18- 'a setter forth of strange gods' (Gr. - 'demons') 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalm 106:37, Leviticus 17:7. Idolatry is part of the prince of this world's engines for holding dominion. Our word "panic," from the idol Pan, represented as Satan is with horns and cloven hoofs, shows the close connection there is between the idolater's slavish terror and Satan his master. The mixture of some elements of primitive truth in paganism accords with Satan's practice of foiling the kingdom of light by transforming himself at times into an 'angel of light.' Error would not succeed if there were not some elements of truth mixed with it to recommend it. Corrupting the truth more effectually mars it than opposing it." -article on "Devil" - p. 169 [comp. Romans 1:18].

RAY ADDS -- The "authority" chosen by Gary is not one most Bible students will find acceptable or trustworthy. There is great difference between those who accept the Bible as God's Word and the many "liberal" scholars today who do not. If you want to accept as an authority on the Bible a person who does not believe IN the Bible, you have that right. But it will be a mistake if you do so.

>(2) Comments from Gary begin with a quotation from an earlier comment by Tom <Gary asks where the idea that demons are seducing us through idolatry came from. The answer is that it came from Leviticus 17:7 -- (in the context of why Israel was to bring their sacrifices to God's sanctuary, not do it out on their own in their own way in the field).>

Sacrificing to demons/whoring after demons means just that. There is no reference to idols/idolatry in this verse (Leviticus 17:7f.).

[Tom --"Idols" are not mentioned here, rather, blame is placed upon those who are behind idolatry: "demons." Both idols and demons (devils-KJV) were "whored" after by Israel (see next verses)] Ezekiel 6:9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which has departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. Ezekiel 23:30 I will do these [things] unto you, because you have gone a whoring after the heathen, [and] because you are polluted with their idols. — If there was a great difference or distinction between sacrificing to demons and sacrificing to idols, did God think one was a lesser offence than the other?]

>Tom <<Here are other references in the O.T. : (devils in KJV is [corrected to] replaced by demons here) Deuteronomy 32:17, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalm 106:37 >>

Gary wrote -- Plainly, these three references prove one thing, that demon worship and idolatry are not the same. 2 Chronicles 11:15 refers to three separate, distinct forms of pagan worship, 1) in the high places set aside for other gods (not God), 2) unto demons, 3) 'for the calves'.

There is no reference here to seduction of demons via idols.

[Tom -- How did Israel sacrifice sons and daughters to demons? Read 1 Kings 11:7: "Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that [is] before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. 2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which [is] in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech." - Here we have a name placed on the practice, and it is the name of an idol which was not itself the demon, but represented the demon to whom the "faithful" worshippers of Molech sacrificed.
I seriously doubt if Solomon was considered a dedicated worshipper of idols or had any regard to what was behind the idols he allowed into Israel, but nonetheless he was guilty before God for his endorsement].

>Tom: <<..in the NT.. 1 Corinthians 10:20 1 Corinthians 10:21 (referring to brethren who just wanted a good steak dinner at the [should be demons', not idols'] temple, regardless of the message it sent to weaker brethren or to the world). >>

There is no reference to idolatry/seduction by demons via idols here; but only to sacrificing to/fellowshipping with demons _per se_, i.e. followers of Christ are instructed to abandon demons in these verses.

[Tom -- Idolatry is the context of the passage; remember, "meats offered unto idols"? Paul's point is that when you eat in the idol's temple (8:10), you know that the idol is nothing, but you forget that the sacrifice you are partaking of was given to an image who represents a demon. Paul says it is a sacrifice to "demons" (10:20,21). Why is it hard to believe that Satan is behind idolatry? Why should it be hard to believe that his angels, or spirits, or ministers, work for him in this regard? Paul says "No marvel."]

>Tom <<1 Timothy 4:1 (I Kings 22 tells of the "lying spirit" which worked in the false prophets who encouraged Ahab to his downfall)" >>

Gary wrote -- The concept 'Seducing spirits' has no connection to idolatry here, but is connected only to/directly to 'doctrines of demons.' Paul is telling Timothy not to confuse 'sound doctrine of God' with any other high-sounding religious words which, then, are demonic (words).
[Tom -- True, the direct reference here is to teachings, but it is describing the same evil spirits who are connected to idols in the previous passages. Doesn't the account in I Kings 22 show how evil spirits, or demons work?]

>Tom << Revelation 9:20, Revelation 16:14, and Revelation 18:2.

[Tom -- The reason demon worship and idols and images are placed together here and in other places is because they are synonymous, and there is no indication that God views one as worse than the other, even though they may have many different forms].

>When compared to 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, we see that Satan's demons are transformed into ministers of righteousness to seduce God's people away from him. >>

Gary wrote -- Paul says demons 'transform themselves' into 'apostles' (not idols)--no one does it for them.
[Tom -- This does not directly refer to idolatry either, but it does describe the Devil's angels and the previous verses connect demons with idols. In order for them to 'transform themselves,' they need cooperative people. The lie-makers need lie-lovers (Revelation 22:15). It is a two-way street.]
Gary wrote -- Demon worship and idolatry are distinct forms of pagan practice. The verses cited above help make the case that the Bible contains no case for 'demon-seduced idolatry.' However, ‘seduction by demons,´ which is a distinct pagan practice, separate from idolatry, is wreaking havoc on people. Paul and Revelation make it quite clear that demons (help) rule the unsaved World.
[Tom -- Idolatry is one of their favorite tools].
Gary wrote -- Demons conduct a 'ministry of righteousness' but do works for which they will be judged. -- Gary
[Tom -- Agreed, if it's true that looking like and speaking like MINISTERS of righteousness means demons conduct ministries of righteousness. The world in general seems concerned about Satan worshippers, while at the same time they are being deceived by other schemes of his, including idolatry. I hope we will not be fooled by any of his devices either, whether they be blatant or subtle. May the Lord help us all to be as wise as serpents, but as harmless as doves].
And for myself and Gary, I say AMEN to the plea that we may each be wise and "harmless."

———— PART THREE ————
On January 5th and 6th I've exchanged comments with Gary Ottoson and with Tom Woody as can be seen below. What do YOU Think?

To: Gary Ottoson
Subject: Re: Innocent Victims?
Date sent: Mon, 5 Jan 1998

Gary, I'm hoping for a comment soon from Tom that will be better than anything I might say about your response to Study #97. Meanwhile, I wanted to let you know it had arrived (and has been added as a supplement to Study #97).

I see no point in Judith Hadley's article on idolatry, which only proves I know too little on the subject I expect. But her implication that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:20 differs from God's truth revealed in the O.T. on the subject does not appeal to me at all.

If Paul DOES differ from what is said in the O.T., it would only mean that now additional light is shed on things that were formerly incompletely understood. I hear her implying that the New Testament revelation must be unimportant and probably not quite right since it differs from what she sees in the O.T. I question whether I want to use her as an authority in this matter (or any other, in fact).

Your first response to Tom is not easily understood by me. You say that there is no reference to idols or idolatry in Leviticus 17:7ff. Have we failed to achieve a mutually satisfactory definition of "idolatry"? Are Tom and Alan using the term differently than you do? Otherwise, I just don't understand how you can say that in the passage there is no reference to idolatry.

The NIV uses the word "idols" to refer to the one being idolized (making a "gift" to the being is respecting, fearing, idolizing that being), with a footnote indicating the translator's view that either idol or "demon" correctly delivers the writer's meaning in English.

It appears to me that my ignorance in this subject makes me unable to see what you're saying. I'm sorry about that.

You say that O.T. people could worship demons but that this is not exactly the same as idolatry since the demon is not the same as an idol made with hands (have I understood you correctly?). To me it seems that idolatry is the worship of any power which is not Jehovah God. That power can be represented by an object made by hand, or selected from nature, or even by the unseen power itself which is only felt and not seen or touched.

Is it helpful for us to get into a technical discussion of idolatry and demonology? The subject I'd like for us to discuss is whether Christians by adopting pagan practices as observances of the celebration of the birth of the Lord Jesus are doing well or badly.

It hardly seems necessary to discriminate exactly as to what type of evil adopting pagan practices is. If we see that making religious offerings to anything other than God is wrong, we hardly need to analyze exactly what we had best CALL the wrong, or what properly is the technical term for the wrong.

Do I correctly see Tom making the point that demons ARE active today (serving Satan just as God's angels serve God)? If so, we had better be discussing how we can best avoid their influence rather than what to call them. I think Tom is saying that we play into their hands by making pagan practices part of our observance of "Christmas."

Do you feel that in practice Tom is wrong and that our use of decorated trees, Yule logs, holly, etc. are entirely neutral as regards religion? What does Santa have to do with a Christian observance of Christmas? Should the children of Christians be told stories about Santa's elves and his reindeer as a means of helping them correctly "observe" the spirit of Christmas? These are the questions I hope to see us seeking together to answer.

You say you see no reference to idolatry in 1 Corinthians 10:20,21, but "only to sacrificing to or fellowshipping with demons." I fail to see why a distinction is important. I've re-read Tom's discussion, and see him only saying that the passage proves that Christians were to have no fellowship with demons, which I hope we all can agree is the case.

I don't see Tom trying to prove whether or not fellowshipping with demons was idolatry, but simply that it is wrong. Possibly I didn't correctly understand Tom's point? But I want no misunderstanding to keep us from seeing that demons ARE still serving Satan in the world and that we must keep our distance from them.

Again, I see no point in your remark about 1 Timothy 4:1 in which you want us to see seducing spirits as tied closely with doctrines of demons, but not related to idolatry.

To me, since Jehovah is the ONLY living God, idolatry is worshipping anything other than Jehovah God. Which makes Tom's remarks exactly appropriate to a discussion of "Christmas" and yours less appropriate. So I'll keep trying to see why this distinction is important to you.

I think you're saying that idolatry is only when a specific object is created and worshipped, so that we're misusing that technical term when we apply it to bringing into our observance of "Christmas" pagan practices which have nothing to do with Jesus or Jehovah God.

But I see no need of using the term technically. When English-speakers use the word "idolize," they are not saying that an object has been made by human hands which then is venerated. We may idolize a house, or a bank account, or another human being, or quite a variety of things. We do NOT limit the term to an object of worship built for the purpose of our worshipping it. So I'm missing the point you're making, I'm afraid.

And I DO see the transference suggested by Tom which causes him to conclude that Satan's servants (demons) are (however it may be accomplished so that they SEEM to be) transformed into "ministers of righteousness" (that is, into servants of Jehovah God rather than their real master) who do seek to seduce God's people away from Him.

You conclude that demon worship and idolatry are distinct, and you suggest we should not blur the distinction. You affirm that seduction by demons IS wreaking havoc on people, which is what I hear Tom affirming. You see, as does Tom, that demons are active in today's culture. And I hadn't at all connected these truths with the Christmas observances which I see in many Christian homes but which I do NOT want to see in Christian assemblies.

Your final sentence might be improved for clarity of thought. I don't understand exactly what you're saying. In what way do you think that demons "conduct a 'ministry of righteousness'"?
I've placed your comments with Tom's and mine and others. But I'm not really pleased with your apparent disagreeing with much truth that I see Tom saying, and I'd like for you to edit what you said so that it's more obviously aimed at agreement with what Tom says that is true rather than appearing to be disagreeing. IF you can take time, and if you see what I'm suggesting, and if you agree that would be a good thing to do. Thanks!

Later comments from Tom follow --

We don't have to worry too much about other Romish holidays, but December 25th is the big one and that is one of the main reasons it is being discussed. How many who celebrate the holiday honestly do it because they decided they wanted to honor Jesus on a certain day of the year? Did everybody just personally decide on December 25th? Or is this the day the Pope picked out, the day that corresponds to the winter solstice festival which was so important to the pagans who celebrated the birthday of their god? What disturbs me most about Xmas is the attempt to tie our Savior into the Papal/pagan holiday.

Thanks again for facilitating these discussions, Ray. You have reminded me again that love does indeed edify, as opposed to having "knowledge", which we often don't handle in the right way (I Corinthians 8-10). Yours in Christ, -- Tom

    
A closing comment from Ray -- I'm sure the Bible is true and is the authority in matters of faith. When I approach Heaven's gate to seek admission, I'll not be asked if I agreed with you or your "guru," but whether I agreed with what God said, and then acted accordingly. I hope to be able to face that judgment with joy rather than apologies and excuses.
  Brief Bible Study #97-C from Ray Downen.
———— PART FOUR ——————

> From: Matthew J. Brock
> To: Ray Downen
> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997
> Subject: Re: More About Christmas
-- Matthew writes,

> Tom's post on Christmas was interesting. What about other things we all do that have idolatrous roots?

> For example, the names of some of the days of the week have origins in idolatry. Monday - Moonday, Thursday - Thor's Day, Saturday - Saturnalia day, etc. Also, some of the month's names are the same.

> It gets ridiculous if you follow this reasoning too far. Just because something had questionable roots way back when, doesn't mean that the present use that is completely different is wrong. <

To which I replied -- Matthew, I sure agree. But not if you're suggesting that Tom is carrying his study "too far." You're right that to most of us Monday does NOT mean a day when we honor the god of the moon, etc. And those who today burn a Yule log do not associate it (most of us do not) with a pagan religion.

But what do these practices have to do with Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem? Why does any Christian want to decorate a tree as a way of celebrating Christ's birth?

I hope you've seen the two addenda to Study #97 which show further comments some have made on the subject. Here's Tom's follow-up received at the same time as your note reached me.
———

To: Ray Downen
Subject: Re: Innocent Victims
From: Thomas W Woody
Date sent: Wed, 07 Jan 1998

Dear Gary & Ray, I apologize to you, Gary, if I have written in a way that sounds smug or disrespectful. I know that Jesus does not teach us to speak in that way and I hope you will understand that I do not want to convey those attitudes. I don't think I feel smug; I just haven't heard anything yet from your reference book or your comments on some scriptures that have changed my outlook on our subject.

Ray has already answered your points in a very thorough fashion, and I appreciate what he has said. I might add that the way I view a doctor of theology is similar to what Paul said about those of reputation at Jerusalem (Galatians 2:1-4). Didn't Jesus teach us (in Matthew 23) not to use religious titles? Didn't he say we are all "brethren"?

Who are these people who can confer the title of doctor on another person? I read about elders, deacons, & evangelists in the New Testament, but where is the PhD, the Master of Divinity, or the Doctor of Divinity? We ought to judge the truth in the way the Bible teaches us, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).

We can understand the Bible without doctors, as Paul said: Ephesians 3:2-6, "Whereby, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)." And 2 Timothy 2:7, "Consider what I say; and the Lord give you understanding in all things." And see 1 John 2:20-27.

I believe there are still some verses I have cited which have not yet been commented on and I would still be interested in hearing your thoughts on them.

If you can bear with me a little longer, here is one more passage which makes a connection between demons and idols: In Acts 17, when Paul saw the city of Athens "wholly given to idolatry" he is given the opportunity to speak at Mar's Hill. In the beginning of his discourse he uses the phrase, "too superstitious" (KJV) or "very religious" in other translations. The Greek word (deisidaimonesteros) {dice-ee-dahee-mon-es'-ter-os} is a form of the same word for demons: (Strong's:) 1142 daimon {dah'-ee-mown} from daio (to distribute fortunes) AV - devils 4, devil 1; 5 1) a god, a goddess 1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad 2) in the NT, an evil spirit.

I was in the bookstore today looking for the dictionary you quoted from and I was unable to find it in the three I checked, but I did run across one book (in the religious section of a secular bookstore) about paganism that was very intriguing. Mind you, the book was not against paganism, it was actually written by a witch promoting paganism. ("You might just be a pagan!," the book says.)

I scanned the book and found his commendation of the Yule log (which represents the god who dies), the winter solstice (which celebrates the birth of the child-god and the lengthening of days which lies ahead), and other pagan practices and holidays which, as has been said many times before, were incorporated into (man-made) holidays, customs and traditions of the apostate church. The true pagans know their religion; why can't we recognize it when it gets mixed in with true worship; "in spirit and truth"?

History is repeating itself as we see more and more things coming out of the closet as the light of truth becomes dimmed by compromise and the shifting sand of man's ideas. Idolatry, paganism, witchcraft, and false teaching which uses the Name of Jesus (in vain) are all from the Devil and his angels (demons, evil spirits).

I hope that our discussion will help us to examine our own lives and be sure that we are following the beloved John's commandment: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols." -- Tom

The apostle John writes, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are IN him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols" 1 John 5:18-21 (NIV).
———–

To: Ray Downen
Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998
Subject: Re: Innocent Victims?
From: Peter E Nuthak

Dear Ray, I was a new Christian and I didn't have a Christmas tree. Two different people walked into my house and asked me "How long were you a Lutheran?" The tree was part of our worship. We would expect a Buddhist to have no Buddhas around the house when they became Christians.

Christmas is a time of getting, not giving. Tell your family next year you all will only give gifts and not receive any. Try to get a Bible study around that time of year. Read Jeremiah 10:1-5. The druids worshiped trees.

Easter is a misspelling of the pagan goddess estra. She was a many-breasted statue of fertility -- thus eggs and rabbits. WE WANT TO LOOK LIKE THE WORLD AND ACT LIKE THE WORLD -- BLEND IN WITH THE WORLD. That is about the opposite of the prophets of the Bible but I guess we don't get stoned because they can't find us among them. Because of Christ, — Pete
---

About Christmas, Sam Stone writes (in the Christian Standard for 12/21/97), "Now I Can Die Content." Our decisions about how best to observe Christmas should leave us feeling that because of those choices we are closer to Christ!

Sam writes -- Scores of people probably watched as Mary and Joseph carried the baby Jesus into the Jerusalem temple forty days after His birth. One who watched saw the moment differently than all others did. His name was Simeon.

When this godly old son of Abraham saw the babe from Bethlehem, he walked directly toward Him. He took the child in his arms, praising God. "Lord," he said, "now I can die content! For, as you promised me I would, I have seen him. I have seen the Savior you have given to the world" (Luke 2:29ff, paraphrased by Ray Downen).

While others in Israel awaited a Messiah who would, like David, be a warrior-king, Simeon watched for one who would be the seed of woman, the Son of Man, the suffering servant, the Son of David. He awaited the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" (Isaiah 9:6). The Holy Spirit had revealed to this righteous man that he would not die until he HAD seen the Lord's Christ.

R. C. Foster, who for many years taught Life of Christ at the Cincinnati Bible Seminary, visualized Simeon's greeting the baby Jesus like this: We are not told who was carrying the infant at the time, but we like to think that Simeon boldly walked up and took the infant son out of the arms of His mother. It is not hard to imagine the shock -- the emotions of fear, astonishment, and thrilled joy -- which raced through her heart.

One look at the feeble old man with natural goodness so evident in his countenance ... would have reassured her after her first fright. With a wonderful outburst of inspired thanksgiving, Simeon blessed God for the glorious thing which he had brought to pass (1958 Bible Teacher and Leader, Standard Publishing, p. 354).

"Now," he said, "I can die content!" We need to share Simeon's experience. This Christmas, we need to see the Lord. Simply hearing about the babe in the manger is not enough. With the eye of faith, we must look to Calvary, knowing that THERE He died for us. We also must see that He arose, and now lives as our intercessor in Heaven.

You and I may want to do many things before WE die. We have places to go, people to meet, goals to reach. All of us do. We have desires so deeply personal that we seldom mention them to others. One Christian mother lying in an intensive care unit told her nurse, "I suppose every mother hopes to live to see her children raised."

We know, however, that we may not see all of our ambitions fulfilled. Many dreams may remain unrealized. But what is essential? What is the one all-important factor we must take into account before we die? It is simply God.

If I never travel to all the places I want to visit, I still CAN go to the one place where I want to live eternally. If I don't get to do all the things I want to do on this earth, I still CAN be sure I have done that which alone has eternal worth. Even if my lifetime does not last long enough to accomplish other good objectives I consider quite important, I WILL have made my life right with God. By seeking first HIS kingdom and His righteousness, we can be sure we are prepared for whatever is yet to come.

Then, like Simeon, WE each can say, "NOW I can die content." Do you agree?

Brief Bible Study #97-D from Ray Downen.